EBear started a great thread on structure about a month ago on the list. I liked several thoughts I had and wanted to save them for all time, so I figured I'd post them here.
Someone posted a link and I responded:
>Found this link about it in my initial searches. It is, of course, just abeginner's guide.
Yeah, I'd definitely have to call this a beginner's guide :) I think that while this may be useful to people just starting out sometimes it can result in stories that read like classroom assignments. Ie, and here we have the first paragraph introduction of the main character, followed by a conflict, which leads to...
I'd definitely disagree that events have to happen in chronological order, at least once a writer has reached a certain competence. Or even that the narrator has to be "introduced." Also, story structure, to me, can be more than scenes linked together in a row. Doesn't it also contain an element of emotional content; when to evoke a certain emotion in the narrative, and pacing; a feel for the 'flow' of the novel, climaxes and resolutions, fast action followed by a 'breather' scene?
Just a few thoughts only one post into the discussion :)
- D
http://www.nudgee.com/library/narrative_structure.htm
To which EBear asked me:
eBear said:
Dena, I'm interested in your comment that a writer of
sufficient competence doesn't necessarily have to tell
a story in chronological order.
Okay, by this I meant several things (bear with me here (no pun intended :P)). Which I acknowledge, btw, that I could have stated better :)
1) I think that this advice can be interpreted by beginning writers to mean they must show everything. The characters going to bed, going pee, what they eat for breakfast, ie, every step along the way from point a to point b. My first novel had a five page scene with a mc waking up, getting dressed and walking to the throne room :) Nothing else, no worldbuilding, no character development, nothing, really.
2) Concurrent with this, the beginning/intermediate writer thinks that backstory always has to be filled in through flashback. Rather than references in dialogue, internal thoughts, sensory input reminders, all devices that eBear uses well throughout Scardown. Not everything has to be 'shown,' and part of growing as a writer is learning, somewhat instinctually imo, what can and can't be shown onstage.
3) I also meant that when a writer works with several POV's, they can overlap (though I don't think this should be overdone), or scenes can happen out of exact chronological order. I'm doing this right now in Magpie. The chronology of the scenes doesn't always follow an exact timeline. I think that a 'connect the dots' feel in literature can be a bad thing :)
>I say this as somebody recovering from a flashback
habit of my own, and also as an editor who reads a lot
of slush that begins with an "exciting" scene and then
flashes back to something else.
This is annoying, an obvious attempt at a 'hook,' one that the TV show Alias has done for a few too many recent episodes. But I've seen even established authors do this - Charles de Lint has a story that begins like this in his latest short story collection. I think, to generalize, that any beginning that feels contrived should be avoided. And that maybe that means the story isn't being started in the right place (which could be a whole 'nother discussion).
Does this make better sense now? :)
Hmmm...ebear said:
>This leads me to conjecture that by the time I start
writing, I should havea pretty good idea what my
character's problem is, and possibly even an idea at a
resolution, even if I'm not much of an outliner.
Anybody got a major disagreement so far? Or an
addition, or thunk, or whatever?
I say:
Well, I wouldn't *dream* of disagreeing with ebear, but as an alternative viewpoint, but I often start novels with just a character, or just a first sentence. Sometimes I won't know what the 'problem' or central 'conflict' is until I've reached the second or third chapter. About then I start to see what's tying the story together. And I've written all the way to the middle of the book without knowing how it's going to resolve. Which is the case with my current WIP :) I may brainstorm scene ideas and plot points along the way, then check them off when they are written into the narrative, but a lot of what I brainstorm doesn't get used.
I think I write a lot from my subconscious. I 'feed' it heavily when I'm writing - whether it's by reading a lot of the historical background for the period I've based my world on (currently Jin China), the myths of that time, whatever - and somehow it all ties together when I sit down to write. Shrug.
So, apparently, I start with characters, or a character, and go from there. Which probably has more to do with the kind of writer I am.
Though I've been trying to become more conscious of structure and pacing as I write, ie, thinking to myself "hmmm...I've had a few scenes with lots of talking, time for some action," or, "it's been a while since I've had a scene from this POV." (Since I tend to work with multiple POV's). It's funny, I think structure is something beginning writers concentrate on a lot (beginning, middle and end), then intermediate writers kind of lose sight of, but once you reach a certain level of writing it starts to become important/enter your consciousness again.
I thought this all was interesting, hope someone else agrees with me :)
That's it for now!
- D
Someone posted a link and I responded:
>Found this link about it in my initial searches. It is, of course, just abeginner's guide.
Yeah, I'd definitely have to call this a beginner's guide :) I think that while this may be useful to people just starting out sometimes it can result in stories that read like classroom assignments. Ie, and here we have the first paragraph introduction of the main character, followed by a conflict, which leads to...
I'd definitely disagree that events have to happen in chronological order, at least once a writer has reached a certain competence. Or even that the narrator has to be "introduced." Also, story structure, to me, can be more than scenes linked together in a row. Doesn't it also contain an element of emotional content; when to evoke a certain emotion in the narrative, and pacing; a feel for the 'flow' of the novel, climaxes and resolutions, fast action followed by a 'breather' scene?
Just a few thoughts only one post into the discussion :)
- D
http://www.nudgee.com/library/narrative_structure.htm
To which EBear asked me:
eBear said:
Dena, I'm interested in your comment that a writer of
sufficient competence doesn't necessarily have to tell
a story in chronological order.
Okay, by this I meant several things (bear with me here (no pun intended :P)). Which I acknowledge, btw, that I could have stated better :)
1) I think that this advice can be interpreted by beginning writers to mean they must show everything. The characters going to bed, going pee, what they eat for breakfast, ie, every step along the way from point a to point b. My first novel had a five page scene with a mc waking up, getting dressed and walking to the throne room :) Nothing else, no worldbuilding, no character development, nothing, really.
2) Concurrent with this, the beginning/intermediate writer thinks that backstory always has to be filled in through flashback. Rather than references in dialogue, internal thoughts, sensory input reminders, all devices that eBear uses well throughout Scardown. Not everything has to be 'shown,' and part of growing as a writer is learning, somewhat instinctually imo, what can and can't be shown onstage.
3) I also meant that when a writer works with several POV's, they can overlap (though I don't think this should be overdone), or scenes can happen out of exact chronological order. I'm doing this right now in Magpie. The chronology of the scenes doesn't always follow an exact timeline. I think that a 'connect the dots' feel in literature can be a bad thing :)
>I say this as somebody recovering from a flashback
habit of my own, and also as an editor who reads a lot
of slush that begins with an "exciting" scene and then
flashes back to something else.
This is annoying, an obvious attempt at a 'hook,' one that the TV show Alias has done for a few too many recent episodes. But I've seen even established authors do this - Charles de Lint has a story that begins like this in his latest short story collection. I think, to generalize, that any beginning that feels contrived should be avoided. And that maybe that means the story isn't being started in the right place (which could be a whole 'nother discussion).
Does this make better sense now? :)
Hmmm...ebear said:
>This leads me to conjecture that by the time I start
writing, I should havea pretty good idea what my
character's problem is, and possibly even an idea at a
resolution, even if I'm not much of an outliner.
Anybody got a major disagreement so far? Or an
addition, or thunk, or whatever?
I say:
Well, I wouldn't *dream* of disagreeing with ebear, but as an alternative viewpoint, but I often start novels with just a character, or just a first sentence. Sometimes I won't know what the 'problem' or central 'conflict' is until I've reached the second or third chapter. About then I start to see what's tying the story together. And I've written all the way to the middle of the book without knowing how it's going to resolve. Which is the case with my current WIP :) I may brainstorm scene ideas and plot points along the way, then check them off when they are written into the narrative, but a lot of what I brainstorm doesn't get used.
I think I write a lot from my subconscious. I 'feed' it heavily when I'm writing - whether it's by reading a lot of the historical background for the period I've based my world on (currently Jin China), the myths of that time, whatever - and somehow it all ties together when I sit down to write. Shrug.
So, apparently, I start with characters, or a character, and go from there. Which probably has more to do with the kind of writer I am.
Though I've been trying to become more conscious of structure and pacing as I write, ie, thinking to myself "hmmm...I've had a few scenes with lots of talking, time for some action," or, "it's been a while since I've had a scene from this POV." (Since I tend to work with multiple POV's). It's funny, I think structure is something beginning writers concentrate on a lot (beginning, middle and end), then intermediate writers kind of lose sight of, but once you reach a certain level of writing it starts to become important/enter your consciousness again.
I thought this all was interesting, hope someone else agrees with me :)
That's it for now!
- D
